edinburghunioccupation

Supporters

We have received a message from a fellow student, which has both lifted and humbled us. We would like to thank Sam and everyone who has dropped us a line for their thoughts. We will publish an excerpt from Sam’s note to give you an idea of the positive responses we’ve been sent…

Excellent job! Keep on going. I was informed about what you’re doing from a friend of mine, and I was thrilled. Hang on the as much as you can. Also, don’t get discouraged by negative criticism. Remember that this is what any protest/sit-in should aim at: to open a discussion/dialogue, get people involved and raise awareness.
You are doing great job, you prove that you are much more than middle-class kids who have fun, and, as my friend said, “you remind us that the dream of a community-yet-to-come, a community that will re-think the question of “justice” and “responsibility” towards the other(s) is not so unattainable”. If it is not the student body who will re-introduce this question, then who?
Respect in solidarity


We have received many messages of solidarity, including ones from…

Noam Chomsky

Norman Finkelstein

Ilan Pappe

Paul in Venezuela, Founder of Edinburgh University Palestine Solidarity Society

Shirley-Anne Somerville MSP

Pauline McNeil MSP

Ian McWhirter, Rector of Edinburgh University

Baroness Jenny Tonge, House of Lords, Westminster

The University and College Union, National Executive

The University and College Union, Scottish Executive

Scotland Against Criminalising Communities

Unite Union

Midlothian Trade Union Council

The Isle of Barra

Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign

Prof. Dennis Brutus, South African anti-Apartheid activist and poet

International Solidarity Movements of Scotland and Glasgow

Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, Dundee Branch

ASLEFF, Train Drivers Union

Fresh Air FM, Edinburgh University Student Radio

Dennis Bransky, South African freedom activist

Stop the War, Queen Mary University

Stop the War, Scotland

People & Planet UK Management Committee

DoSomethingAboutIt.org

SOAS

The New School University, New York

Sussex University

London School of Economics

Cambridge University

Glasgow University

Strathclyde University

Sheffield Hallam University

Dundee University

Goldsmiths University

Hampshire College, Western Massachusetts – the first US college to fully divest from Israel. Congratulations!

Harvard University Government Dept.

Napier University Students for a Free Palestine

To all the universities, groups and individuals (there are too many to list!) who have shown solidarity with the people of Gaza by supporting our peace-full occupation a massive THANK YOU!

  1. Solidarity from the Nottingham occupiers!

  2. Solidarity from Sheffield Hallam!

  3. Solidarity from the New School!

  4. hay, solidarity comrades. Fight to win

    Sachin, Leeds

  5. Thank you for your amazing campaign. Israel is a racist state, at least as bad as apartheid South Africa was. In Lebanon (time and time again), in Gaza and the rest of occupied Palestine, Israel has shown a total disregard for non-Jewish human life.

  6. Jan… remind us of the ultimate aim of Hamas, the elected leaders of the Palestine people? Isn’t it be to exterminate the Israelis?

    Do their rockets show any regard for non-Arab life? No they don’t.

  7. I do have strong solidarity with the cause but would like to express my deep deep concern over the extent to which the sit in will proceed. It needs to remebered that you do not democratically represent the student body and for many any more extreme actions will only generate hate and will isolate yourselves from the rest of the university in this very worthy, and what should be unified, cause. Many do not want to fight the university itself, and if actions become more extreme you run the risk of looking anti establishment rather than unified with Palestine. I would like it to be known by very anti Israel stance and my belief in wanting to help the Palestinian people as much as possible.

  8. anon, Please come by for a chat if possible. We’d really like to address your concerns and hear more about your perspective.

  9. hi all,

    In terms of reviving the idea of student movements and direct action – as well as demonstrating that students hold a lot more power and voice that it is widely recognized these days, what you are trying to is awesome.

    There are, however, people who share your vision and who cannot access the building since they re not students/staff of this University. These are people who can and are willing to help you and your aim, but up-to-date they have received no attention, recognition, or help from your side.

    Access issues have been floating in the air of all general meetings until now, but no actual decision or action was taken.

    Some have already left disappointed and unwilling to provide their solidarity to you anymore. Some are still up for it but have no resources (eg. leaflets to distribute) or even a cup of tea to warm their cold “sit- outside” long hours shifts.

    To be fair, providing food, drinks and music yesterday afternoon was an amazing initiative. But it was soon before everybody went inside the building, leaving people who are willing to help from the outside without any support.

    Your willingness to engage with the people outside has been shown several times in general meeting discussions. Nonetheless, actions are still to be implemented.

    It will not take long, I am afraid, for all those “outside” to be dishearten and abandon their willingness to support you. Those “outside” are as important as the “inside”; to great extend they have been the first -if not only – point of reference with the public raising awareness and support for your cause.

    This morning was nobody outside. Guess Why?

  10. ps.
    – they are “outsiders” for many reasons including the fact that no attempt to makethem “insiders” seems to have been made to-date
    – to-date, very few insiders have taken the initiative to leave their warmth and become “outsiders” for a little while.( though yesterday it was decided for half hour-shifts to be made by everybody from now on)

  11. Solidarity from Sheffield!! Very VERY proud of all you students taking these amazing stands!! Much love and hope you’re all keeping warm!!

  12. I’d just like to take this opportunity to laugh at all involved in this. You really need to get a grip of your lives. Sitting in a lecture theatre and refusing to move is hardly going to make Israel put up their hands and say ‘yeah, we’re a bit out of order, we’ll stop’ and neither will making your university stop buying bottled water. I actually support your cause, but there’s virtually nothing you can do about it, short of trading in your education and flying over and giving aid. I don’t see any of you going that far? What you’re doing won’t make one bit of difference.

  13. Still planning to be ‘in situ’ on Wednesday… causing the Eusa GM to be moved to smaller venue, disenfranchising legitimate members?

    Cmon guys you’ve had your fun… now get out and get back to work.

  14. Can’t disagree with your support for Gazza. Things have never been the same for the poor bugger since he left Rangers…

    Fight the power!

  15. anti

    We are well aware of your concerns. The issue has not been taken further at meetings because of absolute refusals by the university admin to budge on this issue. I assume from your comments, that you’ve made in inside, so I’m surprised you have not been aware of this. We know this is a battle we cannot win and sadly have had to let it go as it is a legal issue that the university will never back down on.

    There has in fact been a desk outside to welcome students in everyday. So we get cold too! If it was late this morning I can only apologise but would blame it on the fact that most of us were up until 3am working on press materials after a four hour demand discussion meeting. In short, we are all working very hard and sometimes things slip a little. We aren’t pros at this, we are driven by an urgent cause and are making the best of a new and very challenging situation.

    Lastly, keeping numbers up inside is of the utmost importance and must take priority over everything else, especially at vulnerable times. Another factor is communal meetings which rely on full participation for consensus decision making. These issues relate to the demands and getting the most out of constructive negotiation, which is of course the main reason we are here.

    Please rest assured that all support internal, external and online is tremendously appreciated. Perhaps devoting energy to spreading awareness online would be the best way for people who the admin will not give entrance to help. We wish we could do more to improve the situation.

    In solidarity

    the occupying students of edinburgh uni

  16. FOR THE ATTENTION OF MODERATORS:

    please can you remove email addresses from the comments — your comments form clearly says that email addresses will not be published.

  17. I do recognise and appreciate the great efforts and energy everybody has put into this. And it is great. I wish however to draw some attention to the fact that more engagement with the ‘outside’ is still needed.

    Some examples to archive this would be to implement the idea discussed yesterday on arranging half-hour shifts of three-four people(perhaps even when general meetings are being held).

    Additionally, make sure that if those outside do not have access, they are at least provided with information on the current situation regarding the occupation, adequate amounts of leaflets and (why not?) a warm cup of tea.

  18. You took down my Comment! OMG OMG FREE SPEACH ahhh! you’re oppresig me like a gazan in a gulag! Solidarity man! peace

  19. it would be really nice if you guys could put on more stuff about the people who support you like their actual messages of support and stuff. i think its really important to remember that you arent alone in doing this, like other people have tried to suggest. you guys are doing good work. keep fighting!

  20. Great job people. Proud and Humbled by your cause. Hang on for as much as you can. Weekend may be tough, but if you go through the next 48 hours, the uni. will realise that you are talking busines. Don’t give up.
    Though far away concerns and solidarity.
    Power to the occupation
    p.s: is there a bank account we can send money to support the occupation? Are you O.K with food and other stuff?

  21. david

    thank you for the support and your generous offers. we’re fine for funds, and no there is no bank account im afraid. we only needed printing money until a staff member offered to give us his free printing card to use. food might be very useful over the weekend though!

    drop an email to edinburghunioccupation@gmail.com to talk about things 🙂

    in solidarity

  22. If someone doubts the current actions it does not mean they do not support action for gazza. In my case I express concern about the fight for Gazza becoming an isolated, anti institution fight that will dominate any fight for in the future and people’s perception of the cause. Also if the university has refused to some demands (e.g. ending eden springs contract over night) due to legal reasons then this needs to be acknowledged. They do have to run an institution.

  23. Right on brothers and sisters, what a heartening wave of protest and direct action has arisen from the fascist onslaught on the people of Gaza. We are away out on to the Dundee city centre streets with our new issue of Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism!, the front page declaring: “Barbarity-Assault on Gaza”. We will be letting everyone know about your brave action and encourage folk
    to support you. Good Luck and Solidarity!
    As people who have recieved a bit of attention from city centre stewards and police, charges of obstruction, disorderly conduct etc. we are calling on all activists to unite and start pushing an agenda to protect all our rights to protest. We have heard about the bullying manhandling of people at Strathclyde prior to their occupation, the deceit of the authorities in Glasgow after promising free movement during that occupation and the strict control of your occupied space. All this needs to be challenged. Is there a legal basis for any of these actions? Lets get organised.
    Venceremos!
    We Shall Win!
    Dundee Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! Supporters

  24. Solidarity to all the occupiers and supporters at Edinburgh University from Revolutionary Communist Group and Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! supporters in Glasgow. As Israel kills once again in Khan Younis we must all in Scotland take up the words of Danton and the spirit of the Palestinian resistance: “Audacity, audacity, and still more audacity!” Our comrades in Glasgow will be doing everything we can across the city to continue the direct actions of the past two weeks and the example you have set in Edinburgh.

    Good luck!
    Victory to the Intifada!

    Glasgow Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism! supporters

  25. Excellent job! Keep on going. I was informed about what you’re doing from a friend of mine, and I was thrilled. Hang on the as much as you can. I agree with David’s commnet above: try to make it through the weekend; they count on the fact that you will get tired and drop it alltogether. Also, don’t get discouraged by negative criticism. Remember that this is what any protest/sit-in should aim at: to open a discussion/dialogue, get people involved and raise awareness. If it was not for your action people like “Common Sense” would keep on advocating their “rigid”, “banal” and “conservative” ideas with no counter-arguments.
    You are doing great job, you prove that you are much more than middle-class kids who have fun, and, as my friend said, “you remind us that the dream of a community-yet-to-come, a community that will re-think the question of “justice” and “responsibility” towards the other(s) is not so unattainable”. If it is not the student body who will re-introduce this question, then who?
    Respect in solidarity

  26. “Commenting is a privilege not a right”?

    So much for the democracy and humanism you are apparently so supportive of.

  27. Well done to and by you all. Things change by grass roots not by governments.

    “We shall have to repent in this generation not for the evil deeds of wicked people but for the appalling silence of the good people” – Martin Luther King.

    You are not being silent and that is great.

    There is a Petition before the Scottish Parliament calling for the expulsion of the Israeli UK Ambassador. If any feel this should be supported please sign and pass to as many as possible? it is not restricted to just Scottish Signatures. More focus there is the better?
    http://epetitions.scottish.parliament.uk/list_petitions.asp
    “Petition by Deryck Beaumont on behalf of the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign calling on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to urge the UK Government to expel the Israeli Ambassador from the UK until Israel shows it is prepared to accept that it is not above international law”

    Anyway well done all of you, keep your spirits up and thanks

    deryck

  28. Being pro-Israel and pro-Palestine aren’t mutually exclusive. You only show one side of the coin.

  29. Great and wonderful work, the true work of committed and engaged students! Remember that you are on the side of the vast majority of the UN General Assembly, at least 14 of 15 members of the Court of International Justice, and every humane and informed person in the world. Apartheid Israel must stop its ethnic cleansing, its mass murder, its torture, its blockade, its nuclear terrorism, its abuse of the memory of the Nazi Holocaust, its white supremacy, its violence, hate, and bigotry. The racist Zionist project is finished, and it has no place in a free and just world. Israel must abandon this ideology and embrace the fact of Palestine/Israel’s multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-cultural reality. Thank you again for your joyful dedication to the best in human nature!

  30. No response? Why don’t you campaign to stop Hamas bombing Israel? Wouldn’t that put an end to Gaza being an issue? As I said, you only show one said of the coin.

  31. To clarify, Gaza is a place with an oppressed people, not an “issue”.

    The only action that will end the conflict being Israel and the Palestinian people is Israel’s complete withdrawal from the Occupied Territories (including the Golan Heights), recognition of the Palestinian people’s sovereignty and an end to Israel’s broad and flagrant disregard for international law.

    The occupying students will not be replying to your “coin” comment because it is factually incorrect and shows you have either read our blog/facebook/emails/press release etc. and completely misunderstood all of them, or you haven’t bothered reading them at all.

    This reply is not an invitation to debate.

  32. Semantics, ad hominem, dismissal, and discouragement of free speech. Viva socialism!

    Love, poverty, etc.
    Annoyed.

  33. It is a shame that you have chosen to end the occupation tomorrow. I only found about it yesterday and would have liked to be involved! I think that things like this need time to grow, and i feel that maybe you didn’t give it enough time. the word needed to be spread, people needed to digest what was going on, think about it, discuss it, whatever, these things take time! why not give it another week, maybe the response will be larger than you think! i am sure there are others like me out there, who would have liked to participate but didn’t have the opportunity (i am based at Kings Buildings by the way..there are many students here as well!!)

    i hope you haven’t been discouraged by some of the criticism and negative comments, i hope this has not caused you to stop..there are people out there that would support you if they were given more information and time, i am sure of that!! anyway, even if you do stop the occupation, i hope that similar actions will be taken again in the future, and not only on the Palestinian issue, but on a variety of things..i didn’t know that there were students in edinburgh that were willing to protest in such a way, now that i do i would like to stay in touch!

  34. too soon

    the students urge you to keep following this blog. the occupation was the beginning, not the end. we will go on from here, using the same tactics and others to continue this struggle

    we will be setting up a mailing list for future action meetings. would you like your email to be added?

  35. yes please add me. thanks!

  36. […] protest has been both historic in its sucesses and the support it’s recieved with MPs, journalists, academics and peers paying their respects.  Other actions up and down the […]

  37. They achieved f*** all… A set of lectures; a contract ended that was ending anyway; and discriminatory policy to favour Palestinian students over others. It’s not been historic, or a success, at all.

  38. Some comments haven’t been responded to. That may be deliberate but I’d like to address the concerns and points made in a couple of the above comments.

    Dave K (13th, 2pm), how exactly did Apartheid end? Wasn’t one massive factor the way that people across the world condemned it and boycotted South African goods? Weren’t South Africans fed up of being a pariah state? Getting rid of Eden Springs may practically only do so much, but the consciousness-raising effect of this action, and of the campaign in general, can go far. We can’t do anything? Not with attitudes like yours we can’t. The aims of the sit-in were not to end Israeli occupation immediately. This is a manageable step in a long campaign.

    Anon (13th, 1pm), we recognise that this direct action is not ideal, and that our actions do not necessarily democratically represent the student body. However, the usual channels to register objections at the university (ie EUSA) have failed, not least because getting quorum at GM’s has been difficult. Hopefully in the future with online referenda (as well as the opportunity to go directly to the University court should the usual channels fail again – something WE WON HERE), action like this will not be necessary.

    Mike W

  39. “the usual channels to register objections have failed”: maybe due to people not supporting it? Eden Springs, Disinvest, both quorate but not enough votes in favour. As for a direct channel to Court – you’ve secured a route for anyone to bypass the democratic process.

  40. ‘Common Sense’, can you please clarify the use of the word ‘common’ in your name?

    If the ‘common’ sense you stand for is common in the sense of being ‘standard’, ‘established’, ‘formed by tradition’ or just generally ‘taken for granted without question’, then it is pointless addressing your comment, since, in that case, you probably are not very open to re-thinking anything.

    If, however, you advocate ‘common sense’ that consists in good, solid and wise judgement that is accessible to all people and can be attained on the basis of simple reasoning, without any specialist knowledge being necessary, then perhaps you would like to consider the following:

    The validity of the ‘democratic process’, as you call it, cannot be taken for granted – it is the standard process for decision-making at this moment in time at this university, but if it proved to be inadequate then re-thinking it should be an option. Now if you want to claim that democracy is the only fair system there is and ever could be, then I would like to tell you that ‘democracy’ is a very general and elusive term; literally it stands for ‘rule of the people’ and does not in any way entail majority rule, which is the basis of the standard ‘democratic process’ you are referring to. In fact, majority rule may very likely prove to be inadequate in terms of fair representation (and in my opinion it has already proven to be so since it fails to give minority groups any say in decision-making), so it is not unreasonable to seek alternative decision-making processes within a democracy, or even an alternative political system altogether. I would in no way claim that I have all the answers as to what would constitute a fair political system, but I am pretty sure that fairness can only be genuinely achieved if the voice of minority groups or even single individuals can somehow be included in the process. Having said all this, I don’t want to dismiss the democratic process as it currently stands at Edinburgh University, but I think any reasonable, thinking person with common sense would want to be open to re-evaluating and improving it, and perhaps allowing other forms of decision-making processes alongside the standard one that is already in place is a step in the right direction. What do you think?

  41. Its not majority rule at all. You could have got 301 to vote ‘yes’ out of 35,000+ students. That is the rule of not even 1%. But you still couldn’t get enough people. Your politics of occupation and extremist imposition should be kept out of our uni and its bodies.

  42. ‘Common Sense’, I am not sure if the tone of your post is aggressive, dismissive, or just very absolute, but in any case, it is obvious that you are not willing to have a debate and that you are very confident of your own position. Fair enough – personally I find that only through debating can one actually learn anything and improve.

    I would also like to say that you shouldn’t be referring to me as one of the occupying students, because in actual fact I am just an observer with an interest in politics within the student community and with no personal links to the occupying students (although I do find what they are doing very interesting). Also I would like to point out that I was referring to democracy in the more general sense, while you are obviously talking about the EUSA general meeting. I have never spoken against the process of the general meeting and I actually think it is very important to maintain it and improve it, if possible. In fact, I think that it is pretty amazing that a number of roughly 300 out of 35,000 students, as you say, can actually pass a motion that might make a difference. However, I have been to only one general meeting, and this is because, to be honest with you, I didn’t find it to be very substantial in a political sense and it seemed to me that the more political (political in the wider sense) motions failed to gain interest and subsequently the sufficient votes (majority rule does actually apply within the general meeting itself). I think it is perfectly natural and, of course, important to be discussing the KB bus at a general meeting, but there are other things that I, personally, find more interesting and important and I found the students attending the meeting to lack the interest or maybe even the boldness to give these issues the time and consideration I think they are due.

    But, hey, this is just my personal opinion as it might be the personal opinion of some of my fellow students. And the point I was just trying to make in my previous post was that I think that these ‘weaker’ voices should be heard and also allowed to take part in the decision-making process. And even though I perfectly respect the EUSA general meeting, especially because it is accessible to all students, I also feel the need to be represented through other processes as well (a need that is shared by many other students, I might add), and perhaps an occupation could be such a process. I don’t find it to be ‘extremist’ or ‘imposing’ anymore than any protest is extremist or imposing. Are you against protest of any kind, may I ask? And in what sense do you think an occupation is different from any other form of protest? At the end of the day, I don’t think that initiating or taking part in an occupation or even going directly to the university court bypassing the EUSA general meeting necessarily constitutes an imposition on other students’ rights. Why do you think it does? The way I see it these are just alternative political tactics with merits of their own (e.g. they allow for the weaker voices to be heard and considered and maybe even strengthen, and they are also more creative and radical – is that a bad thing?) and could be perfectly compatible with other political processes.

  43. I think ‘blunt’ would be the phrase to describe my posts, perhaps.

    My position is very simple. You ask “are you against protest of any kind?”. No I am not. What I am against is three things… (1) the overawing *imposition* of someones views on others – this is what the occupation has done, it has IMPOSED on other people. (2) *circumvention* of established processes – GM didn’t work, normal protest didn’t work, so you occupy a building to get your own way, and in doing so establish a dangerous precedent (allowing any tiny minority group to spread anarchy and disruption, hold the Uni to ransom, and bypass normal processes). (3) *exaggeration* and the legitimising of extreme views i.e. apartheid state, a new intifida etc. – which would not be acceptable in normal decent avenues of political discourse. But occupiers (irresponsibly) do as they like.

    Also, the frustration that media outlets saw it as “the voice of Edinburgh students”, as they don’t know any better – and of course the occupiers were happy to encourage that perception. But there is no forum for people of a different view to directly challenge that i.e. occupation is on a different plane, it disregards the normal routes by it’s very nature, and isn’t subject to the rules.

    Finally, the point that an occupation can never be a ‘debate’ such as you so whole-heartedly espouse. How can it? You seize buildings and issue demands, cry XYZ: but there is no obvious and safe route for your opponents to voice their views on an equal footing, short of seizing a building next door + installing a set of loudhailers.

    For me, the occupation was an embarrassing disgrace to your cause.

  44. Hi ‘Common Sense’, thanks for your reply. I was going to answer yesterday but then got caught up with other things and didn’t have the time.

    I am glad that you have expressed your feelings about the occupation in such detail. I don’t know if there is any point in arguing about it at any more length here, but there are just a few things I would like to say.

    I am surprised that you say that you are not against protest generally, but against the occupation because (1) it is an imposition on other people, (2) it has bypassed normal procedures, and (3) it expresses and legitimises extreme views. It seems to me that any protest of any kind, is, in a sense, an imposition: you make noise, march down a street, stop traffic, litter with posters and flyers, put up banners, play music, and just generally disrupt normal, quiet, everyday routine. A protest also bypasses normal procedures: if the normal routes had or could work in achieving certain goals, then the protesters would not have to take to the streets and make noise and ‘impose’ their views as you say on their fellow citizens. As far as ‘extreme’ views are concerned, I am not really sure I know what an extreme view is. A view that in your eyes is extreme, in somebody else’s might just be common sense; and vice versa.

    I think you should not forget that many of the things that we take for granted today have been won through protests that were expressing ‘extreme’ (for their time) views, protests that were working outside and often in defiance of normal procedures and were much more imposing than a peaceful occupation (an occupation, which, I might add, lasted only 3 working days and was willing to even allow lectures go on as normal) ever could be. In fact, compared to other types of protest, a peaceful occupation like the one that took place in our university has the additional advantage of providing people with precisely that space and forum for discussion that you mention. Did you visit the occupation? Did you try to express your views and were turned away?

    You might argue perhaps that you didn’t feel it was safe for you to do so. If indeed you felt threatened by the occupation in any way, then this is something the occupying students should take into account. I suspect, however, that you felt more alienated than threatened, am I right? I guess that because people are different, have different views and different ways of expressing themselves, they do end up alienating each other. But it goes both ways, you know. The occupying students may dismiss you as ‘conservative’, say, just as you dismiss them as ‘extreme hippies’. On the one hand, that is perfectly natural since people just are different as I said and we can’t all like each other or feel comfortable around each other. On the other hand though, I don’t think people need to like each other or share aesthetic or even political values in order to sit down and have a discussion on a problem they share an interest in. And I am assuming you are interested in the cause of the occupation, otherwise you wouldn’t be posting on this blog. Of course you might not agree whole-heartedly, you might agree with some of the demands but not with all, or you might even have some serious objections. Whatever the case is, ideally the occupation should have been able to function just like the EUSA general meeting, say, and provide a place for discussion. In a sense, of course, it is already doing so – I mean, we are having a discussion here, are we not? And even though I suspect we will not end up agreeing on much, I was still interested in reading what you had to say and possibly the occupying students will also take your points into account.

    As for the media, what can I say, most of what they print and say are far from the truth, anyway. ‘The voice of Edinburgh students’? Well, I don’t know, maybe not. On the other hand, much of what is normally portrayed as ‘the voice of Edinburgh students’ does not represent me and many others either. I think it all comes down to this: there is the ‘normal’ route that you and other students feel represented by, and then there are ‘alternative’ routes that other students (perhaps like the occupying students) feel represent them better. I think that all routes can co-exist and all have their individual merits. That’s all.

  45. disgraceful, its not our place.

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